VCTF-MB-AlienArena-v1

[WarDad71]

Anyone remember the night eagleeye berserked from under the flag in ArcadeRadioactive and capped...I was just spawning after dying and was able to see him do it from underneath - most awesome thing I had seen in a long time. Those guys that can do that stuff - let them do it, adds to the challenge imo and makes guys like me rethink working on my gameplay although I'm pretty set in my ways and probably won't be taking any classes soon

Still fun to watch though and I tip my hat to those that can do it that are true/pure players.

[vivr]

I was just offering some suggestions Bean, your map so do what you want. I was really bitching at Belta for kicking me when I had the flag. Try saying something to me next time and I would have told you I made the mapper aware of it.

By the way, on Veniis you can Bezerk to the flag and back. Don't put turrets on that map too

[mudpuppet]

shitfight . best band evar !

or beserk to rooftop on peniis =\

[Ghosted]

It's not berzerking that was the problem, it's the fact that you can berzerk where no one without that skill can reach you.

I saw EJ berzerk around ooges twice in a row once and it was awesome, but there was still the potential of killing him. He wasn't hiding in a box where no one could reach him.

[badasp]

I don't want to get into a shit fight here, but you realize you are talking about an exploit the mapper ended up fixing right? Do you think I'm upset at mudpuppet/vivr/etc for knowing how to shield jump? No, I actually respect that, as it's a cool skill. It's also a skill I don't really want to invest the time in learning.

If Bean thinks that beserking to the top is an exploit then so be it. It's his map and he can do what he wants with it. I just don't think that dumbing things down for the masses improves gameplay, which is my stand on the issue.

If I was into shield jumping I'd play trials and I wouldn't bitch about all the other people shield jumping where I couldn't. I'm not calling out the skill, but the fact that this particular exploit puts almost an entire team in a spot where they *cannot* return the flag. This breaks up the game flow and makes it less fun for the majority of players.

Perhaps such a scenario would serve as an impetus to learn how to get to the top. At least that's how I would react. Though I certainly realize, as you demonstrate, that most will just get upset and complain about others doing things that they're unwilling to learn.

Think about this. You log 40+hrs a week gaming and have well over 1000hrs in UT alone and you are saying you wouldn't be able to exploit this because you haven't learned it.. but you expect casuals to pick up a difficult and rarely practical skill? For what?

Just because my priorities aren't into beserk-jumping doesn't mean that others should be deterred from using such skills. That would be a rather selfish approach for me to take I won't take it. I believe all types of play should be encouraged, even those that don't suit my skill-set. You obviously disagree with a such a viewpoint, and I respect your opinion while still holding strongly onto my own.

The idea of fun got lost somewhere in there. Smells like troll bait to me.

It may not be fun for you but it could be fun for someone else. No attempt at trolling, either. Just trying to elevate gameplay as opposed to bringing it down to the lowest common denominator.

[Ghosted]

I don't want to get into a shit fight here, but you realize you are talking about an exploit the mapper ended up fixing right? Do you think I'm upset at mudpuppet/vivr/etc for knowing how to shield jump? No, I actually respect that, as it's a cool skill. It's also a skill I don't really want to invest the time in learning.

If Bean thinks that beserking to the top is an exploit then so be it. It's his map and he can do what he wants with it. I just don't think that dumbing things down for the masses improves gameplay, which is my stand on the issue.

If I was into shield jumping I'd play trials and I wouldn't bitch about all the other people shield jumping where I couldn't. I'm not calling out the skill, but the fact that this particular exploit puts almost an entire team in a spot where they *cannot* return the flag. This breaks up the game flow and makes it less fun for the majority of players.

Perhaps such a scenario would serve as an impetus to learn how to get to the top. At least that's how I would react. Though I certainly realize, as you demonstrate, that most will just get upset and complain about others doing things that they're unwilling to learn.

Think about this. You log 40+hrs a week gaming and have well over 1000hrs in UT alone and you are saying you wouldn't be able to exploit this because you haven't learned it.. but you expect casuals to pick up a difficult and rarely practical skill? For what?

Just because my priorities aren't into beserk-jumping doesn't mean that others should be deterred from using such skills. That would be a rather selfish approach for me to take I won't take it. I believe all types of play should be encouraged, even those that don't suit my skill-set. You obviously disagree with a such a viewpoint, and I respect your opinion while still holding strongly onto my own.

The idea of fun got lost somewhere in there. Smells like troll bait to me.

It may not be fun for you but it could be fun for someone else. No attempt at trolling, either. Just trying to elevate gameplay as opposed to bringing it down to the lowest common denominator.

I get your points. We can agree to disagree. You should read up on game theory. There's such a thing as a group optima and it doesn't have to be the lowest common denominator.

Also:
"I just don't think that dumbing things down for the masses improves gameplay" - over simplification, this can be attacked reductio ad absurdum (ex. what if it takes 100 hours on average to be able to do that, do you still hold to your argument? what about 1000 hours? a million?)
"Just because my priorities aren't into beserk-jumping doesn't mean that others should be deterred from using such skills" - false dilema
"That would be a rather selfish approach for me to take I won't take it" - attacking by relative viewpoint
"Though I certainly realize, as you demonstrate, that most will just get upset and complain about others doing things that they're unwilling to learn." - so this argument would hold for other map exploits like all the under the map ones that have been patched right? even after i said it's not the berserking but the map exploiting
"I believe all types of play should be encouraged, even those that don't suit my skill-set. You obviously disagree with a such a viewpoint" - strawman, I wasn't saying it was the gameplay, read my last post
"Just trying to elevate gameplay as opposed to bringing it down to the lowest common denominator." - false dilemma

I'm a layman dude, but you sure spit out a lot of personal attacks and logical fallacies for a lawyer. Saying you respect someones viewpoint while attacking them as lowest common denominator in every other sentence is pro.

And sorry btw, this is me on 3 hours of sleep and 6 shots of coffee. Normally I would have the sense to not engage in this flame by 1000 cuts bullshit (because that's what'll happen if we keep responding point by point without backing down or the thread is locked).

[badasp]

I get your points. We can agree to disagree. You should read up on game theory. There's such a thing as a group optima and it doesn't have to be the lowest common denominator.

Also:
"I just don't think that dumbing things down for the masses improves gameplay" - over simplification, this can be attacked reductio ad absurdum (ex. what if it takes 100 hours on average to be able to do that, do you still hold to your argument? what about 1000 hours? a million?)
"Just because my priorities aren't into beserk-jumping doesn't mean that others should be deterred from using such skills" - false dilema
"That would be a rather selfish approach for me to take I won't take it" - attacking by relative viewpoint
"Though I certainly realize, as you demonstrate, that most will just get upset and complain about others doing things that they're unwilling to learn." - so this argument would hold for other map exploits like all the under the map ones that have been patched right? even after i said it's not the berserking but the map exploiting
"I believe all types of play should be encouraged, even those that don't suit my skill-set. You obviously disagree with a such a viewpoint" - strawman, I wasn't saying it was the gameplay, read my last post
"Just trying to elevate gameplay as opposed to bringing it down to the lowest common denominator." - false dilemma

I'm a layman dude, but you sure spit out a lot of personal attacks and logical fallacies for a lawyer. Saying you respect someones viewpoint while attacking them as lowest common denominator in every other sentence is pro.

And sorry btw, this is me on 3 hours of sleep and 6 shots of coffee. Normally I would have the sense to not engage in this flame by 1000 cuts bullshit (because that's what'll happen if we keep responding point by point without backing down or the thread is locked).

LOL, it's seems you're trying to make this into something a lot more than a simple discussion about map gameplay. I'm simply here to give my opinions on what makes for best gameplay; if you're trying to impress someone with an ePeen internets debate contest then I suggest you look elsewhere. Also, for someone so quick to yell personal attacks and logical fallacies, you seem to have no issue on using personal information that is irrelevant to the discussion. I'd give you the name of that logical fallacy, but since you have your Intro to Logics textbook out I guess you'll know where to look.

To get back on point I'll make it plain and simple, without all the BS above.

1. I'm in favor of keeping all gameplay options open, regardless if most people can do them or not.

2. Others are in favor of limiting gameplay options, particularly on the basis that most people cannot do so-and-so maneuver. E.g.,:

Except maybe 10% of players could shield jump that. Might be fun for you, but not for the other team who might have no realistic way of get up there, not to mention knowing the spot.

3. I respond that instead of limiting gameplay to what most people can do, let's open up gameplay to what anyone can do.

Of course there's always the charge of "exploit," and if the map-maker feels it's that way then I guess it is one. Even so, I think the map would be better if it included features that allowed for advanced gameplay. Perhaps that is something Mr. Bean should consider.

[Ghosted]

1. I'm in favor of keeping all gameplay options open, regardless if most people can do them or not.
2. Others are in favor of limiting gameplay options, particularly on the basis that most people cannot do so-and-so maneuver. E.g.,:

Right and this is the false dilemma. I specifically said I had no issue with berserk jumping or whatever skill. The issue is that if you have a hidden spot where only say 1% of the players can get to, it tends to ruin the game play, meaning it makes things less fun for the majority. That's my opinion and it has nothing to do with people not using certain skills. It's using those skills to basically take themselves out of the game. No one is arguing against "features for advanced gameplay". You know it would be possible to have a way to shield jump to a section and also a less ideal way to get to the same section right? A good example would be ooges as it's definitely preferable to berserk, but others can still cap the flag and get to the carrier.

As far as my retort, it has nothing to do with ePeen debating. If I were more concerned with my eWhatever I wouldn't even engage in this as it reflects poorly on me. Unfortunately if somebody takes my words out of context and responds in a backhanded condescending manner implying that I'm trying to 'dumb down' for the 'lowest common denominator' because I'm 'selfish', then I feel compelled to defend. You jab me and I'm going to jab back and you certainly know that by now.

As far as personal info, I used your game time, which is not hidden, to illustrate a point. I apologize for mentioning your profession as I suppose that's personal.

[Mr Bean]

Thanks again for the constructive critisism

[CTC-Salchicha]

Ahh, Ghosted and Badasp, two great players that taste great together. Hey, you got your Badasp in my Ghosted. You got your Ghosted in my Badasp.

From a mappers point of view, you make what you see in your head, you share it with others to elicit feedback and improve upon it (if the map is worth it), and finally release something you hope people will like but that also stays true to your vision.

So far, I think our system here works great. We get wonderful advice on how to refine things and hopefully please most folks with the final product.

Keep on keeping on Beanie.

[Beltamaxx]

Ahh, Ghosted and Badasp, two great players that taste great together. Hey, you got your Badasp in my Ghosted. You got your Ghosted in my Badasp.

From a mappers point of view, you make what you see in your head, you share it with others to elicit feedback and improve upon it (if the map is worth it), and finally release something you hope people will like but that also stays true to your vision.

So far, I think our system here works great. We get wonderful advice on how to refine things and hopefully please most folks with the final product.

Keep on keeping on Beanie.

Mmmmmmmmmm, a little chorizo always make the eggs taste better. Don't take 'little' personally Sal...

[rimmer59]

lol.

[vivr]

Bezerking on top of Veniis definitely was not intended because there are no meshes or whatever you call them up there. I would consider it a map exploit.

Lets not make shield jumping more than it is, you look down press jump and release the shield charge. Practice it in instant action while in "god" mode and you'll learn it in less than 5 minutes. You can also practice bezerking in instant action using the "allammo" command.